WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:08.350 So, we've got a special treat this morning in studio. Both congressmen, part of the dream team here, Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna. Great to see you 00:00:08.360 --> 00:00:17.550 both. Welcome. >> Good to see you, Saagar. >> So, um, you guys have obviously teamed up on a number of initiatives, but you have a new one that you wanted to bring to us today, Congressman Massie, about 00:00:17.560 --> 00:00:27.070 the, um, you know, Epstein transparency. Tell us what you're pushing forward now. >> Well, yesterday was the 1-year anniversary of the introduction of the Epstein Files Transparency Act that Ro 00:00:27.080 --> 00:00:38.270 Khanna and I wrote. And we thought it was time to do a sequel because, uh, the the first bill's been very successful. We got 3 million documents released. Um, but there have 00:00:38.280 --> 00:00:47.990 been some, uh, dragging of feet >> Mhm. >> by the Attorney General and the Acting Attorney General. And so, um, you know, this is to spur the next level. 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:58.150 Specifically, the main thing that this new bill does that we've introduced is forces the US Attorney General to cooperate with state attorneys general 00:00:58.160 --> 00:01:06.710 that want to prosecute Epstein co-conspirators under state law. And it turns out in New Mexico, that's where the Zorro Ranch was. You hear a lot 00:01:06.720 --> 00:01:15.630 about Epstein Island. You hear almost nothing about Zorro Ranch, but it was expansive. It was massive. People were going there all the time. Crimes were 00:01:15.640 --> 00:01:23.790 committed there. And some of those aren't barred by statute of limitations. And so, the the Attorney General in New Mexico would like to prosecute those 00:01:23.800 --> 00:01:33.590 crimes. And so, we're making it easier with this bill. That's one of the things it does. >> Mhm. >> What's really interesting, uh, about this is that it did create a political crisis for the Trump administration. The 00:01:33.600 --> 00:01:43.630 Vice President, J.D. Vance, actually was on the Joe Rogan podcast just yesterday. I do want curious for both of your response. Congressman Khanna, you can start. The Vice President said that it 00:01:43.640 --> 00:01:52.190 was, quote, "Nonsense" that the president was forced to sign the Epstein Files Transparency Act. He said that he did it completely of his own volition, 00:01:52.200 --> 00:02:00.950 that the idea that the two of you kind of dragged them to it, uh, was ridiculous cuz nobody controls, uh, Donald Trump. I'm curious for for both of your reaction. Congressman Khanna, 00:02:00.960 --> 00:02:10.950 you can start. >> When the history of the Trump administration is written, what Massie and I did will be seen as the most decisive blow to Trump that began the 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:19.949 unraveling of his presidency. I mean, no one had stood up to Donald Trump before effectively. And Trump tried everything 00:02:19.959 --> 00:02:29.150 from including intimidating Thomas's colleagues, Lauren Boebert, and Nancy Mace, and Marjorie Taylor Greene. Some of them he brought into the 00:02:29.160 --> 00:02:37.870 situation room >> Right. >> to get them not to support this. They adjourned Congress. They didn't swear in Anna-Lena 00:02:37.880 --> 00:02:46.750 Grijalva. They tried everything. Then what happened? Not only did they realize that we were going to pass the act, Donald Trump realized that he was going 00:02:46.760 --> 00:02:56.670 to get probably 80 to 90 Republicans to be willing to overturn his veto. >> Right. >> And that's when he signed the act, and he told J.D. Vance to go into the 00:02:56.680 --> 00:03:04.910 situation room and start the cover-up. But what this did, it's not just about Justice for Survivors, which is important. After this, now there are 00:03:04.920 --> 00:03:13.070 what, 100 discharge petitions? Now suddenly everyone is willing to defy Donald Trump, and and we changed the entire culture 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:22.910 in the Congress. >> Mhm. >> Do you agree with that, Congressman? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we dragged him kicking and screaming to signing this. I asked to be invited to the bill signing. 00:03:22.920 --> 00:03:33.350 I think I'm the first congressman who's ever got a bill passed that wasn't invited to the bill signing. >> [laughter] >> I didn't get the big fat Sharpie. And they did it in secret. Like in a in 00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:41.830 a room with no cameras. You never see that happen. And at one point, the White House said that it would be a hostile act toward the president for any 00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:51.630 Republican to cosign the discharge petition. And you had Jeff Freeland, who's the the legislative affairs director for the president, on Capitol 00:03:51.640 --> 00:04:01.390 Hill. I saw him going up and down the street and through the halls, running around trying to get people's names off of this bill, trying to keep people from sponsoring it. There's no way they 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:09.910 wanted this to happen. And then what was the fallout? I mean, Howard Lutnick. We found out that the guy who's behind Donald Trump on Air Force One and behind 00:04:09.920 --> 00:04:18.710 the resolute desk, the guy who's always standing there. That guy took his family to Epstein Island for a little picnic after claiming on TV that he had nothing 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:26.909 to do with Jeffrey Epstein. The man was so disgusting he would have nothing to do with him. And you know, but what we need right now is accountability. 00:04:26.919 --> 00:04:37.070 And that's what this bill gets to. The other There's a couple other things the bill does that I'd love to share explain. So, you know, in the hearings we saw yesterday, what what was with 00:04:37.080 --> 00:04:45.470 Todd Blanche with his nomination, what was painfully obvious is he's ignoring the victims. And they can't even get their own files. 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:54.550 He's still withholding files, testimony that the victims gave to the FBI. And we know it exists on 302 forms. The The victims, the survivors, the ones 00:04:54.560 --> 00:05:03.909 who are still alive, they know it's there and they can't get it. So, our bill gives those victims standing in US court to sue the Attorney General to 00:05:03.919 --> 00:05:13.070 get their own files. That's That's really important. The other thing it does is the DOJ This This hasn't been widely reported, but twice they've told 00:05:13.080 --> 00:05:21.870 us in Congress in like these little notes or memos to Congress that we're using deliberative process privilege in order not to give you some of these 00:05:21.880 --> 00:05:30.909 documents. And our bill Our original bill said, you've got to tell us about your decisions on whether to prosecute or not prosecute, but they're withholding all those files. That's the 00:05:30.919 --> 00:05:39.110 nub of this is why didn't they prosecute people like Leslie Wexner, Leon Black, Jess Staley, people who in their own files showed that they had information 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:49.830 on enough that at one point that you know, Leslie Wexner was listed on an FBI document as a co-conspirator in a child sex trafficking ring. Also so was Leslie 00:05:49.840 --> 00:05:58.630 Groth, you know, the Epstein's main assistant who helped traffic the the women. So what this will 00:05:58.640 --> 00:06:06.790 do is it takes away unambiguously. We believe our first bill did anyway, but unambiguously it says you don't have these special privileges that you can 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:16.590 exert to withhold files. And finally it gives Rowan I standing to go to a court, get in front of a judge and have a judge have the third branch of government 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:24.830 adjudicate whether the executive branch is complying with the law that the legislative branch wrote and the president signed. >> And Congressman Massie, you know, you 00:06:24.840 --> 00:06:33.510 were successfully defeated in your primary. Thanks to >> Successfully defeated? What does that mean? >> [laughter] >> It's like a jumbo shrimp. >> By the way, IF IF TRUMP WANTED to 00:06:33.520 --> 00:06:43.270 voluntarily sign this, he should have been endorsing Massie, not campaigning for >> And [laughter] that's the point is, you know, you cross Trump and you cross the Israel lobby. They dumped what, 30 00:06:43.280 --> 00:06:52.590 million dollars in against you. Their effort from their perspective was successful in getting you out. But I am curious if you agree with with Congressman Khanna that your efforts on 00:06:52.600 --> 00:07:01.070 Epstein were a blow to the Trump administration and I don't think that that was, you know, your goal. That's not the way you have framed it, but it does seem like it created a fracture in 00:07:01.080 --> 00:07:09.870 the base and was kind of, you know, the start of his approval rating really beginning to to fall off. >> Well, I think it was self-inflicted by the president. He he went on TV and 00:07:09.880 --> 00:07:18.030 said, "If you think there's any there there in these Epstein files, you are no longer a supporter of mine. I don't want your support." He told MAGA, "You're 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:27.710 you're no friend of mine if you still want to pursue this promise that I made, right?" So he basically fractured right in half MAGA. And he lost Marjorie 00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:35.750 Taylor Greene on this. I mean, this was he called her a traitor for for pursuing the Epstein files Transparency Act, right? Like I might have had other 00:07:35.760 --> 00:07:43.910 infractions like voting against the big beautiful bill or or not voting for for Johnson, but Marjorie Taylor Greene had been loyal to the president, and the 00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:54.470 only place that she deviated was on the Epstein files. He told her on the phone, and she related this to me immediately when it happened, that you're going to hurt my friends if you persist in 00:07:54.480 --> 00:08:03.750 getting these files released. And so, um it was I wouldn't I don't Brooke gives us too much credit for inflicting this damage. 00:08:03.760 --> 00:08:12.270 At MIT, we call this ballistic podiatry, which is shooting yourself in the foot, right? >> [laughter] >> That's what I mean. >> it like that. 00:08:12.280 --> 00:08:20.590 >> The original cause of the what what >> Right. We gave him the opportunity. >> Yes, for sure. >> Uh but also, uh I really think the credit 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:29.030 goes to the survivors, and it was and it was Roe who invited them for the first time to be heard on the steps of the Capitol, right there in front of the 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:37.310 Capitol. We gave them a voice. There were people who had never been public before. It wasn't worth the risk to them. They came out, it's said that they 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:47.150 were, you know, had been victims, were survivors, and told their stories. And I think that's what motivated uh our colleagues eventually to vote 00:08:47.160 --> 00:08:56.829 nearly unanimously to pass this. >> Now, one thing I haven't said, uh one of the reasons the partnership with Massie and I works, Thomas is an MIT guy. He 00:08:56.839 --> 00:09:06.470 knows all the details. You know, you want to understand discharge petition, this rule, that rule, Thomas knows all of that. And you need to know all of that to achieve what we did. 00:09:06.480 --> 00:09:14.790 Uh I uh helped bring the survivors and organized that press conference twice uh in front of the Capitol, and that 00:09:14.800 --> 00:09:23.110 changed public opinion. And that uh helped make sure that we could pass it. And it was the teamwork with different complimentary skills, not just across 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:32.430 the aisle, uh that allowed us to to get get the Epstein files uh passed. >> Well, one more thing. If the president is so gung-ho to get these files out, why are they still dragging their feet 00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:40.510 and and exerting every privilege they can to redact anything they can? >> Well, to both of your point, you know, you meant Crystal mentioned the Israel lobby. There's been a lot of speculation 00:09:40.520 --> 00:09:49.870 about Jeffrey Epstein, his connection to Israel. The administration has officially denied it. I believe Todd Blanche, you know, in his interview with Ghislaine Maxwell. And yet the vice president again yesterday on the Joe 00:09:49.880 --> 00:09:58.110 Rogan experience said it is clear that Jeffrey Epstein had connections to the highest levels of American intelligence and Israeli intelligence. Let's take a 00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:08.030 listen and we'll get both of your reactions. >> He clearly had connections to the uppers the highest levels of American intelligence. He clearly had connections 00:10:08.040 --> 00:10:17.230 to the highest levels of Israeli intelligence. In fact, one of the interesting story One of the interesting things the Epstein saga reveals about and I and I try to make this point. 00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:26.190 One of the reason why I'm always careful and I say there are some elements within the Israeli government who don't like our peace process because there are a lot of elements within the Israeli 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:34.270 government that actually do like our peace process. They recognize that this indefinite campaign is not good for them, either. And And the Epstein thing is interesting 00:10:34.280 --> 00:10:44.829 because as much as I know, you know, Prime Minister Netanyahu, not a particularly popular person in the United States of America right now. 00:10:44.839 --> 00:10:55.510 Epstein seemed to be connected to the elements of the Israeli deep state that were left of center. Like I've always found that fascinating. It It wasn't like he was super connected 00:10:55.520 --> 00:11:05.070 to the right of center of Israeli politics. >> So, an interesting clip there, you know, both confirm Well, at least, you know, he's the highest official I on record to 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:13.630 say he had connections to the US intelligence and to Israeli intelligence. Never been confirmed before either by the Mossad actually been denied by Mossad and definitely also been denied by the US intelligence. 00:11:13.640 --> 00:11:22.270 But he also seems to try and to separate Epstein from the current coalition government in leading Israel. Congressman Khanna, I'm just curious for your reaction considering, you know, 00:11:22.280 --> 00:11:32.430 these comments from the vice president. >> First of all, he's not a pundit. He's the sitting vice president. He could release the remaining files. He could declassify the documents and explain to 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:41.590 the American public what exactly happened with Epstein, who he was. He should if he believes this, he has an obligation to release the files and have 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:51.550 a report on Epstein's tied to intelligence. And this is a standard line where he politicizes everything. Oh, they were connected to the left not the right. But what the relevant but the 00:11:51.560 --> 00:11:59.990 but >> from my [laughter] perspective, but anyway. >> But the relevant point is, okay, why why isn't he taking action? Instead he was in the situation room covering up at 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:08.790 every step of the way the release of the files and transparency. >> Yeah, sure. >> And to some degree he's just admitting or curating what's in the files, right? 00:12:08.800 --> 00:12:17.790 We got an audio tape now of Ehud Barak asking Jeffrey Epstein while Ehud Barak was still the defense minister for Israel, how am I going to make money? 00:12:17.800 --> 00:12:26.350 What's my grift going to be on the outside once I'm no longer a public official and you get Epstein telling him, well, think of everybody who owes 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:36.150 you something because of your public position and leverage that. Told him to get on the board of Palantir, right? So the and that's all audio. So for the vice president that is no big 00:12:36.160 --> 00:12:46.230 revelation. I think it's a political admission on his part that it's he's being tainted, it's toxic, his association with the president and this 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:56.310 administration that's trying to cover these things up. So he's giving you something that's already known. He's and I'd also Epstein was he met with Obama's 00:12:56.320 --> 00:13:04.550 CIA director. You know, acting CIA director. Can't remember his name right now. Yeah, that's right. So obviously he was tied 00:13:04.560 --> 00:13:13.204 to the highest levels. That stuff needs to come out as we were saying. >> I I used to think Vance seriously now I'm much more concerned Massie is going to be the nominee on the other side. I mean look, 00:13:13.214 --> 00:13:22.430 >> [laughter] >> the the the Vance was tainted with Epstein. He's literally running the cover-up for Epstein. He's been tainted on this war in Iran. He's 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:31.270 literally now cheerleading and he's been tainted on Israel as even he knows. So he's going out well, no, no, no, I'm not terrible on Epstein. No, no, no, I'm not 00:13:31.280 --> 00:13:40.470 terrible on Israel. But, you know, it's actually a contradiction to some of the things he said before he had to do Donald Trump's bidding. No question. >> Congressman, I'm curious Congressman 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:49.030 Massie. I'm curious if what you learned in the Epstein files changed your world view at all. Because, you know, as a leftist, I'm looking at this I'm like, oh, a bunch of billionaires showing a 00:13:49.040 --> 00:13:58.190 lot of class solidarity here. >> Right. >> Very much comports with my view, although it was much more explicit um than perhaps I even had imagined. You're giving the examples of like, hey, let's 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:07.950 connect you with Palantir. Here's, you know, what country's resources you can go and exploit, etc. But, I wonder as a libertarian if it shifted your view or or if it changed your perspective at all 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:17.110 looking at some of the revelations here. >> Well, I joke I tell people I'm more of a conspiracy theorist than I was before I got elected. Now [laughter] that 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:26.750 Now that they let me in the skiff and I can hear the top secret stuff, I'm like, yeah, well, that was true. [laughter] But, my opinion on the Epstein thing definitely has shifted over time. Look, 00:14:26.760 --> 00:14:36.870 I, you know, in Congress, people want you to solve healthcare, they want you to take care of taxes, national defense, all of this stuff. And so, I didn't give 00:14:36.880 --> 00:14:45.590 it enough attention for the first several years. It was one of those things to me on the internet, maybe it's a conspiracy. And then as I started paying attention and then particularly 00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:55.550 when I saw that Pam Bondi did sort of this spoof, almost a caricature of releasing these binders. And then I personally asked Pam Bondi to her face 00:14:55.560 --> 00:15:05.110 at a dinner, when are you going to release the rest of the Epstein files? Just as And I And I looked her in the face and her answer to me was, oh, there's nothing left but child, you 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:14.270 know, sexual exploitation material and you'd be a pervert if you'd want to see any of that stuff. And she tried to shut me down that way and I thought, all right, there's there there, right? 00:15:14.280 --> 00:15:24.190 That's what raised my suspicion. And and then in the last summer, they said, closing the case. No prosecutions, there's nothing here, it's done. And 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:33.390 that's when Ro and I said, "No, it's not done." And we we filed the bill. And but that moment, that audio tape of 00:15:33.400 --> 00:15:41.950 Epstein talking to Ehud Barak, it it gave me some insight into Jeffrey Epstein. Uh that's when I decided he 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:50.550 probably didn't kill himself. Like he had so much leverage. I believe he thought his time in the prison was temporary. Either he had enough 00:15:50.560 --> 00:16:00.270 blackmail material or he was friends with enough people that if you just sat there and didn't say too much that they would eventually get him out. And so that's that's the one thing that also 00:16:00.280 --> 00:16:09.470 transitioned in my mind. I went from, okay, maybe this is a conspiracy that he was killed or he's still alive or whatever to, no, that's probably true. 00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:17.710 He was probably killed or somehow sprung from the jail because he had that much leverage over these powerful people. >> Yeah, interesting. So one of the things 00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:26.310 you mentioned there is blackmail. The vice president also addressing a claim that the president is being blackmailed. Obviously this connects to the war in Iran which you're both against as well. 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:37.510 Let's take a listen to that and we'll get your reaction. >> What I have seen and I've looked at most of the files is that there just wasn't dispositive evidence. And if that 00:16:37.520 --> 00:16:46.670 dispositive evidence ever existed, it was probably destroyed after 2006-2007. Now look again in our defense, yes, was there some, you know, bitching 00:16:46.680 --> 00:16:56.030 and moaning and was there some back and forth? Yes, but there we eventually collected 6 million documents as part of 00:16:56.040 --> 00:17:05.309 the effort. The president, people say the president was forced into releasing the documents. Like again, the idea that Donald Trump could not have killed that legislation, 00:17:05.319 --> 00:17:14.069 especially with the United States Senate, is a joke. He absolutely could have killed it. What did he do? He actually said, "Nope, we're going to release these files." He thought, you 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:23.069 know, he he was annoyed by by story. He was annoyed by the Democrats accusing him of doing things bad. By the way, like do I think there is any I've never seen 00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:31.190 a single piece of credible credible evidence that the President of the United States engaged in wrongdoing with minors, ever. >> So, that was the claim there about 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:39.590 blackmail. It is later connected also to the war with Iran. I'm curious, you know, for both of your reactions because you the Epstein files transparency act becomes a political crisis and of course 00:17:39.600 --> 00:17:48.390 the war gets onto Iran. It's impossible not to at least look at that and be like, is there some connection? Like what what exactly is happening? Congressman Khanna, curious for your reaction. 00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:57.590 >> Well, I think they both are terrible decisions. Do I believe that he went into Iran to distract from the Epstein? No, I 00:17:57.600 --> 00:18:06.230 don't I don't think it was that, but I think he broke a fundamental pledge of not getting into foreign wars, yet he got talked into 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:14.670 conquest. And he saw what happened in Venezuela and he said, "Okay, I can turn around the regime in Venezuela." I was opposed to what he did in Venezuela and 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:23.910 he thought he could just march into Iran and ultimately betrayed his fundamental promise to the country of not getting into foreign wars. >> I I know it's easy to pick apart 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:32.550 something like a Joe Rogan interview, but I have to take issue with the fact that he said they found 6 million files. Why have they released only 3 million? 00:18:32.560 --> 00:18:42.150 And then also the Vice President says he's read or seen most of them. I don't believe that. I've been I've spent hours at the DOJ and I've been barely just like scratching the surface. The 3 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:51.350 million files is hard to consume and then to connect all the dots. So, uh that on its face, the claim that he makes there and then also the ridiculous 00:18:51.360 --> 00:19:01.150 claim that the President this was something the President wanted to do or eventually wanted to do is false. If he still wanted to do it, he would direct his Attorney General and Acting Attorney 00:19:01.160 --> 00:19:10.270 General to just go ahead and release all this stuff. Right. >> Hey, if you like that video, hit the like button or leave a comment below. It really helps get the show to more people. And if you'd like to get the 00:19:10.280 --> 00:19:21.360 full show ad-free and in your inbox every morning, you can sign up at breakingpoints.com. >> That's right. Get the full show, help support the future of independent media at breakingpoints.com.