Breaking Points: Massie & Khanna on Epstein Files 2.0

Name: Breaking Points: Massie & Khanna on Epstein Files 2.0
Uploaded: 2026-07-16
Duration: 19 min 20 s
Description: Massie and Ro Khanna in studio on Epstein Files Transparency Act 2.0 — forcing DOJ to cooperate with state AGs — and laughing off JD Vance's claim that Trump signed the first bill voluntarily.

Jul 16, 2026 · 19:20 epstein breaking-points transparency doj trump

Massie and Ro Khanna in studio on Epstein Files Transparency Act 2.0 — forcing DOJ to cooperate with state AGs — and laughing off JD Vance's claim that Trump signed the first bill voluntarily.

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So, we've got a special treat this morning in studio. Both congressmen, part of the dream team here, Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna. Great to see you
both. Welcome. >> Good to see you, Saagar. >> So, um, you guys have obviously teamed up on a number of initiatives, but you have a new one that you wanted to bring to us today, Congressman Massie, about
the, um, you know, Epstein transparency. Tell us what you're pushing forward now. >> Well, yesterday was the 1-year anniversary of the introduction of the Epstein Files Transparency Act that Ro
Khanna and I wrote. And we thought it was time to do a sequel because, uh, the the first bill's been very successful. We got 3 million documents released. Um, but there have
been some, uh, dragging of feet >> Mhm. >> by the Attorney General and the Acting Attorney General. And so, um, you know, this is to spur the next level.
Specifically, the main thing that this new bill does that we've introduced is forces the US Attorney General to cooperate with state attorneys general
that want to prosecute Epstein co-conspirators under state law. And it turns out in New Mexico, that's where the Zorro Ranch was. You hear a lot
about Epstein Island. You hear almost nothing about Zorro Ranch, but it was expansive. It was massive. People were going there all the time. Crimes were
committed there. And some of those aren't barred by statute of limitations. And so, the the Attorney General in New Mexico would like to prosecute those
crimes. And so, we're making it easier with this bill. That's one of the things it does. >> Mhm. >> What's really interesting, uh, about this is that it did create a political crisis for the Trump administration. The
Vice President, J.D. Vance, actually was on the Joe Rogan podcast just yesterday. I do want curious for both of your response. Congressman Khanna, you can start. The Vice President said that it
was, quote, "Nonsense" that the president was forced to sign the Epstein Files Transparency Act. He said that he did it completely of his own volition,
that the idea that the two of you kind of dragged them to it, uh, was ridiculous cuz nobody controls, uh, Donald Trump. I'm curious for for both of your reaction. Congressman Khanna,
you can start. >> When the history of the Trump administration is written, what Massie and I did will be seen as the most decisive blow to Trump that began the
unraveling of his presidency. I mean, no one had stood up to Donald Trump before effectively. And Trump tried everything
from including intimidating Thomas's colleagues, Lauren Boebert, and Nancy Mace, and Marjorie Taylor Greene. Some of them he brought into the
situation room >> Right. >> to get them not to support this. They adjourned Congress. They didn't swear in Anna-Lena
Grijalva. They tried everything. Then what happened? Not only did they realize that we were going to pass the act, Donald Trump realized that he was going
to get probably 80 to 90 Republicans to be willing to overturn his veto. >> Right. >> And that's when he signed the act, and he told J.D. Vance to go into the
situation room and start the cover-up. But what this did, it's not just about Justice for Survivors, which is important. After this, now there are
what, 100 discharge petitions? Now suddenly everyone is willing to defy Donald Trump, and and we changed the entire culture
in the Congress. >> Mhm. >> Do you agree with that, Congressman? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we dragged him kicking and screaming to signing this. I asked to be invited to the bill signing.
I think I'm the first congressman who's ever got a bill passed that wasn't invited to the bill signing. >> [laughter] >> I didn't get the big fat Sharpie. And they did it in secret. Like in a in
a room with no cameras. You never see that happen. And at one point, the White House said that it would be a hostile act toward the president for any
Republican to cosign the discharge petition. And you had Jeff Freeland, who's the the legislative affairs director for the president, on Capitol
Hill. I saw him going up and down the street and through the halls, running around trying to get people's names off of this bill, trying to keep people from sponsoring it. There's no way they
wanted this to happen. And then what was the fallout? I mean, Howard Lutnick. We found out that the guy who's behind Donald Trump on Air Force One and behind
the resolute desk, the guy who's always standing there. That guy took his family to Epstein Island for a little picnic after claiming on TV that he had nothing
to do with Jeffrey Epstein. The man was so disgusting he would have nothing to do with him. And you know, but what we need right now is accountability.
And that's what this bill gets to. The other There's a couple other things the bill does that I'd love to share explain. So, you know, in the hearings we saw yesterday, what what was with
Todd Blanche with his nomination, what was painfully obvious is he's ignoring the victims. And they can't even get their own files.
He's still withholding files, testimony that the victims gave to the FBI. And we know it exists on 302 forms. The The victims, the survivors, the ones
who are still alive, they know it's there and they can't get it. So, our bill gives those victims standing in US court to sue the Attorney General to
get their own files. That's That's really important. The other thing it does is the DOJ This This hasn't been widely reported, but twice they've told
us in Congress in like these little notes or memos to Congress that we're using deliberative process privilege in order not to give you some of these
documents. And our bill Our original bill said, you've got to tell us about your decisions on whether to prosecute or not prosecute, but they're withholding all those files. That's the
nub of this is why didn't they prosecute people like Leslie Wexner, Leon Black, Jess Staley, people who in their own files showed that they had information
on enough that at one point that you know, Leslie Wexner was listed on an FBI document as a co-conspirator in a child sex trafficking ring. Also so was Leslie
Groth, you know, the Epstein's main assistant who helped traffic the the women. So what this will
do is it takes away unambiguously. We believe our first bill did anyway, but unambiguously it says you don't have these special privileges that you can
exert to withhold files. And finally it gives Rowan I standing to go to a court, get in front of a judge and have a judge have the third branch of government
adjudicate whether the executive branch is complying with the law that the legislative branch wrote and the president signed. >> And Congressman Massie, you know, you
were successfully defeated in your primary. Thanks to >> Successfully defeated? What does that mean? >> [laughter] >> It's like a jumbo shrimp. >> By the way, IF IF TRUMP WANTED to
voluntarily sign this, he should have been endorsing Massie, not campaigning for >> And [laughter] that's the point is, you know, you cross Trump and you cross the Israel lobby. They dumped what, 30
million dollars in against you. Their effort from their perspective was successful in getting you out. But I am curious if you agree with with Congressman Khanna that your efforts on
Epstein were a blow to the Trump administration and I don't think that that was, you know, your goal. That's not the way you have framed it, but it does seem like it created a fracture in
the base and was kind of, you know, the start of his approval rating really beginning to to fall off. >> Well, I think it was self-inflicted by the president. He he went on TV and
said, "If you think there's any there there in these Epstein files, you are no longer a supporter of mine. I don't want your support." He told MAGA, "You're
you're no friend of mine if you still want to pursue this promise that I made, right?" So he basically fractured right in half MAGA. And he lost Marjorie
Taylor Greene on this. I mean, this was he called her a traitor for for pursuing the Epstein files Transparency Act, right? Like I might have had other
infractions like voting against the big beautiful bill or or not voting for for Johnson, but Marjorie Taylor Greene had been loyal to the president, and the
only place that she deviated was on the Epstein files. He told her on the phone, and she related this to me immediately when it happened, that you're going to hurt my friends if you persist in
getting these files released. And so, um it was I wouldn't I don't Brooke gives us too much credit for inflicting this damage.
At MIT, we call this ballistic podiatry, which is shooting yourself in the foot, right? >> [laughter] >> That's what I mean. >> it like that.
>> The original cause of the what what >> Right. We gave him the opportunity. >> Yes, for sure. >> Uh but also, uh I really think the credit
goes to the survivors, and it was and it was Roe who invited them for the first time to be heard on the steps of the Capitol, right there in front of the
Capitol. We gave them a voice. There were people who had never been public before. It wasn't worth the risk to them. They came out, it's said that they
were, you know, had been victims, were survivors, and told their stories. And I think that's what motivated uh our colleagues eventually to vote
nearly unanimously to pass this. >> Now, one thing I haven't said, uh one of the reasons the partnership with Massie and I works, Thomas is an MIT guy. He
knows all the details. You know, you want to understand discharge petition, this rule, that rule, Thomas knows all of that. And you need to know all of that to achieve what we did.
Uh I uh helped bring the survivors and organized that press conference twice uh in front of the Capitol, and that
changed public opinion. And that uh helped make sure that we could pass it. And it was the teamwork with different complimentary skills, not just across
the aisle, uh that allowed us to to get get the Epstein files uh passed. >> Well, one more thing. If the president is so gung-ho to get these files out, why are they still dragging their feet
and and exerting every privilege they can to redact anything they can? >> Well, to both of your point, you know, you meant Crystal mentioned the Israel lobby. There's been a lot of speculation
about Jeffrey Epstein, his connection to Israel. The administration has officially denied it. I believe Todd Blanche, you know, in his interview with Ghislaine Maxwell. And yet the vice president again yesterday on the Joe
Rogan experience said it is clear that Jeffrey Epstein had connections to the highest levels of American intelligence and Israeli intelligence. Let's take a
listen and we'll get both of your reactions. >> He clearly had connections to the uppers the highest levels of American intelligence. He clearly had connections
to the highest levels of Israeli intelligence. In fact, one of the interesting story One of the interesting things the Epstein saga reveals about and I and I try to make this point.
One of the reason why I'm always careful and I say there are some elements within the Israeli government who don't like our peace process because there are a lot of elements within the Israeli
government that actually do like our peace process. They recognize that this indefinite campaign is not good for them, either. And And the Epstein thing is interesting
because as much as I know, you know, Prime Minister Netanyahu, not a particularly popular person in the United States of America right now.
Epstein seemed to be connected to the elements of the Israeli deep state that were left of center. Like I've always found that fascinating. It It wasn't like he was super connected
to the right of center of Israeli politics. >> So, an interesting clip there, you know, both confirm Well, at least, you know, he's the highest official I on record to
say he had connections to the US intelligence and to Israeli intelligence. Never been confirmed before either by the Mossad actually been denied by Mossad and definitely also been denied by the US intelligence.
But he also seems to try and to separate Epstein from the current coalition government in leading Israel. Congressman Khanna, I'm just curious for your reaction considering, you know,
these comments from the vice president. >> First of all, he's not a pundit. He's the sitting vice president. He could release the remaining files. He could declassify the documents and explain to
the American public what exactly happened with Epstein, who he was. He should if he believes this, he has an obligation to release the files and have
a report on Epstein's tied to intelligence. And this is a standard line where he politicizes everything. Oh, they were connected to the left not the right. But what the relevant but the
but >> from my [laughter] perspective, but anyway. >> But the relevant point is, okay, why why isn't he taking action? Instead he was in the situation room covering up at
every step of the way the release of the files and transparency. >> Yeah, sure. >> And to some degree he's just admitting or curating what's in the files, right?
We got an audio tape now of Ehud Barak asking Jeffrey Epstein while Ehud Barak was still the defense minister for Israel, how am I going to make money?
What's my grift going to be on the outside once I'm no longer a public official and you get Epstein telling him, well, think of everybody who owes
you something because of your public position and leverage that. Told him to get on the board of Palantir, right? So the and that's all audio. So for the vice president that is no big
revelation. I think it's a political admission on his part that it's he's being tainted, it's toxic, his association with the president and this
administration that's trying to cover these things up. So he's giving you something that's already known. He's and I'd also Epstein was he met with Obama's
CIA director. You know, acting CIA director. Can't remember his name right now. Yeah, that's right. So obviously he was tied
to the highest levels. That stuff needs to come out as we were saying. >> I I used to think Vance seriously now I'm much more concerned Massie is going to be the nominee on the other side. I mean look,
>> [laughter] >> the the the Vance was tainted with Epstein. He's literally running the cover-up for Epstein. He's been tainted on this war in Iran. He's
literally now cheerleading and he's been tainted on Israel as even he knows. So he's going out well, no, no, no, I'm not terrible on Epstein. No, no, no, I'm not
terrible on Israel. But, you know, it's actually a contradiction to some of the things he said before he had to do Donald Trump's bidding. No question. >> Congressman, I'm curious Congressman
Massie. I'm curious if what you learned in the Epstein files changed your world view at all. Because, you know, as a leftist, I'm looking at this I'm like, oh, a bunch of billionaires showing a
lot of class solidarity here. >> Right. >> Very much comports with my view, although it was much more explicit um than perhaps I even had imagined. You're giving the examples of like, hey, let's
connect you with Palantir. Here's, you know, what country's resources you can go and exploit, etc. But, I wonder as a libertarian if it shifted your view or or if it changed your perspective at all
looking at some of the revelations here. >> Well, I joke I tell people I'm more of a conspiracy theorist than I was before I got elected. Now [laughter] that
Now that they let me in the skiff and I can hear the top secret stuff, I'm like, yeah, well, that was true. [laughter] But, my opinion on the Epstein thing definitely has shifted over time. Look,
I, you know, in Congress, people want you to solve healthcare, they want you to take care of taxes, national defense, all of this stuff. And so, I didn't give
it enough attention for the first several years. It was one of those things to me on the internet, maybe it's a conspiracy. And then as I started paying attention and then particularly
when I saw that Pam Bondi did sort of this spoof, almost a caricature of releasing these binders. And then I personally asked Pam Bondi to her face
at a dinner, when are you going to release the rest of the Epstein files? Just as And I And I looked her in the face and her answer to me was, oh, there's nothing left but child, you
know, sexual exploitation material and you'd be a pervert if you'd want to see any of that stuff. And she tried to shut me down that way and I thought, all right, there's there there, right?
That's what raised my suspicion. And and then in the last summer, they said, closing the case. No prosecutions, there's nothing here, it's done. And
that's when Ro and I said, "No, it's not done." And we we filed the bill. And but that moment, that audio tape of
Epstein talking to Ehud Barak, it it gave me some insight into Jeffrey Epstein. Uh that's when I decided he
probably didn't kill himself. Like he had so much leverage. I believe he thought his time in the prison was temporary. Either he had enough
blackmail material or he was friends with enough people that if you just sat there and didn't say too much that they would eventually get him out. And so that's that's the one thing that also
transitioned in my mind. I went from, okay, maybe this is a conspiracy that he was killed or he's still alive or whatever to, no, that's probably true.
He was probably killed or somehow sprung from the jail because he had that much leverage over these powerful people. >> Yeah, interesting. So one of the things
you mentioned there is blackmail. The vice president also addressing a claim that the president is being blackmailed. Obviously this connects to the war in Iran which you're both against as well.
Let's take a listen to that and we'll get your reaction. >> What I have seen and I've looked at most of the files is that there just wasn't dispositive evidence. And if that
dispositive evidence ever existed, it was probably destroyed after 2006-2007. Now look again in our defense, yes, was there some, you know, bitching
and moaning and was there some back and forth? Yes, but there we eventually collected 6 million documents as part of
the effort. The president, people say the president was forced into releasing the documents. Like again, the idea that Donald Trump could not have killed that legislation,
especially with the United States Senate, is a joke. He absolutely could have killed it. What did he do? He actually said, "Nope, we're going to release these files." He thought, you
know, he he was annoyed by by story. He was annoyed by the Democrats accusing him of doing things bad. By the way, like do I think there is any I've never seen
a single piece of credible credible evidence that the President of the United States engaged in wrongdoing with minors, ever. >> So, that was the claim there about
blackmail. It is later connected also to the war with Iran. I'm curious, you know, for both of your reactions because you the Epstein files transparency act becomes a political crisis and of course
the war gets onto Iran. It's impossible not to at least look at that and be like, is there some connection? Like what what exactly is happening? Congressman Khanna, curious for your reaction.
>> Well, I think they both are terrible decisions. Do I believe that he went into Iran to distract from the Epstein? No, I
don't I don't think it was that, but I think he broke a fundamental pledge of not getting into foreign wars, yet he got talked into
conquest. And he saw what happened in Venezuela and he said, "Okay, I can turn around the regime in Venezuela." I was opposed to what he did in Venezuela and
he thought he could just march into Iran and ultimately betrayed his fundamental promise to the country of not getting into foreign wars. >> I I know it's easy to pick apart
something like a Joe Rogan interview, but I have to take issue with the fact that he said they found 6 million files. Why have they released only 3 million?
And then also the Vice President says he's read or seen most of them. I don't believe that. I've been I've spent hours at the DOJ and I've been barely just like scratching the surface. The 3
million files is hard to consume and then to connect all the dots. So, uh that on its face, the claim that he makes there and then also the ridiculous
claim that the President this was something the President wanted to do or eventually wanted to do is false. If he still wanted to do it, he would direct his Attorney General and Acting Attorney
General to just go ahead and release all this stuff. Right. >> Hey, if you like that video, hit the like button or leave a comment below. It really helps get the show to more people. And if you'd like to get the
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